Celibacy & Abstinence: Choice and Social Pressure | Episode 2 Transcript

How much of sexual choice is truly our own? In Episode 2, Shelby Terrell and Tara Jones explore how religion, family, gender expectations, and dating culture shape our relationships with celibacy and abstinence. Read the conversation on questioning inherited beliefs, making room for uncertainty, and choosing what feels right for you. 

Explore the social pressures surrounding celibacy and abstinence, from religious beliefs and hookup culture to shame, empowerment, and personal choice. For more episodes, watch here

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Welcome to please, an educated pleasure channel.

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My name is Vanessa and I own and operate. Please, a sexual wanna shop located in Brooklyn, New 

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platform for having open and informed conversations about sexual health and sexual wellness.

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Each series will have one main topic. Each topic will be run and moderated by a different host.

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series three with Shelby Terrell (LMSW) and Tara Jones, is a conversation on celibacy and abstinence.

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Speaker 1
Welcome to celibacy and abstinence. My name is Shelby Tyrrell. I'm a licensed sex and relationship therapist and certified intimacy coordinator. And I'm joined by Tara Jones, a Black, queer sex educator based in Philadelphia and New York. Also founder of Youth Sex program. And tonight we are at please, an educated pleasure shop located in South Slope, Brooklyn. We are on to episode two, which is choice, religion and social conditioning, the social forces that impact, celibacy and abstinence in our world today.

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Speaker 1
So, Tara, how much of what we call sexual choice is actually shaped by religion, family, culture, gender expectations or morality? I would imagine a lot, like, it is something that probably a lot of us will spend our lifetime investigating. Like when that comes up, where that comes up, how that comes up. I think even if you weren't necessarily raised religious like this, this is a religious country and a religious culture that we've come up in, and religion has really impacted, the ways that we talk about sex, the ways that we, and the ways that we even define sex.

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Speaker 2
So, yeah, I think there's so much like, evidence of this. Yeah. Like, I think I know obviously there on but I think that that is like grown as an entire industry out of, fear mongering around sexuality, more inclined to identify themselves as addicted or as having a problem. And I think that there's something real to, like ego tonic sexuality, which is like when you're in this, your sex life and practice doesn't align with your morals, and it makes you feel, out of control.

00:02:37:06 - 00:03:14:09
Speaker 1
And I think that there cope with that. And something understandable about that. I think it's the systems at play that make us feel like urges and thoughts that are natural and healthy. The enemy or our shameful or our, you know, horrible shame. Such a huge piece of that. Yeah. So how do you how do we tell the difference between a choice we're making and a role that we've internalized?

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Speaker 1
I think you it's coming from, I think of dating.

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Speaker 2
Yeah. And I think that that is like a really dominant reason that a lot of people are choosing to be celibate or abstinent outside of religious influences. And so I think that there are, like, universally, these very understandable reasons that people might, might, might make these decisions for themselves. And so I think if at the end of your investigation, like that's where you land is like, this is the world that I live in and I don't want to date in it right now, or I'm too busy or, you know, dating is a mess or, you know, the world is a mess.

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Speaker 2
The economy's a mess. I can't afford to date like any of these reasons. I'm like, okay, if that if that's what comes out of your investigation, if that's what comes up from you questioning why you want to be abstinent, like those are very understandable, very understandable things. Yeah, absolutely. What happens when someone chooses abstinence because they genuinely want it versus because they've been taught that sex is dangerous, dirty, sinful, or something that they have to earn?

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Speaker 1
Yeah, I think that there is sexuality and masturbation and like the negative psychological impact that that can have. I don't know if also that's something that comes up in like your work when you see clients too. And like how understandably upsetting like that can be for folks and how the sort of instinct is to like self-blame as opposed to like, blame the entity that told you that, like, your sexuality was like evil or, you know, of the devil.

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Speaker 1
So I imagine, like, the psychological outcomes are, like very different. Yeah, yeah, I agree, I think that especially where in a religious context, in an environment or community, I know for myself, I grew up in Utah.

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Speaker 1
I grew up in a very suburban area. It was very white. It was very like young that you were taught to get married young, and your role as a woman was to procreate. Your body, your sex, your everything belonged to the man. And so I did not I was I had no exposure to queer trans. I had no exposure.

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Speaker 1
And any idea that there was any option to be anything different until much, much later in my life. And so then the idea that abstinence was the only pathway and the only acceptable choice for my body, that that I was taught that any urge or intuition or gut instinct of mine was wrong, because the only right voice was that of gods or the Holy Spirit or whatever it was.

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Speaker 2
So I was constantly taught that my own internal voice was a sin and to be challenged versus the other way around. Yeah. And so even when our our brains don't fully develop until our mid to late 20s. And so then if your 20s, developmentally speaking, are the emerging adulthood phase where you're just constantly trying different clothes, different hairstyles, different partners, different places to live, careers, whatever it is, but at a very young age, it's instilled in you that you have to be this way.

00:06:53:00 - 00:07:35:11
Speaker 2
Trying to learn anything different is a complete deconstruction and deprogramming and relearning of everything. Yeah. So whether it's gender, sexuality, relationship style, there's so many things. And so I have so much respect for what you do for the, for for the, for the youth, you know, and and me too. And I think, like hearing about the abstinence that is forced on you and is forced on so many of us versus like, it's making me think of, I just read a book called American Hookup and it was talking about hookup culture.

00:07:35:12 - 00:07:57:00
Speaker 2
It is, I think it was written in the last like seven years. It already feels like a little bit outdated because I think the world has changed. Something that she talks a lot about is like the pressures that young people feel to be a part of this college culture and to drink and to have sex. And they're assuming that their peers are having more sex than them.

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Speaker 2
And so it's like of the kids who do stay and they like, think that they're the only person in the world. And they're and they're probably doing so from a place of more agency, than anyone else, because they feel like at this time in their lives they're pressured to have sex, and that's not something that they want.

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Speaker 1
So, it's really interesting. I think, like the difference there. Like a lot of us have experienced this, like, forced thinking around abstinence, that the fear based, the fear mongering that comes behind it. So then it's not even a choice of mine. It's a threat to my internal, eternal salvation. Yeah. And even, you know, the purity rings that the fathers give their daughters and all of that.

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Speaker 1
And then you have this, if you compare it to sex ed or rates of folks in Europe, for example, who have better sex education, more comprehensive, inclusive information and access to, contraception, those rates, the those they're having sex later in life because they have more information to make more informed decisions about their bodies. They have, fewer or the lower rates of teenage pregnancy.

00:09:08:03 - 00:09:37:08
Speaker 2
Everything is just, better. Yeah. When we tell parents that a lot internal sex. And that's really just, if we're lucky, birth control and as, like off putting for some people. And so we love like data like that. But I also think like it's a little bit common sense. Like the more you gatekeeping something from someone, the more they like, want to know.

00:09:37:08 - 00:10:01:02
Speaker 2
It's like I tell you, don't think about an elephant and a two two and now you are. So it's like, yeah, like, duh. But, so I think the more that we can also put ourselves in the position of these young people and not think about them in terms of who we want them to be, but think about who we were and who we are.

00:10:01:04 - 00:10:29:19
Speaker 1
I mean, don't even get me started on information about pleasure information or any of that, but it's for another episode of our series. Can abstinence be empowering for one person and deeply shame based for another? I think so, I absolutely think so. I think like it's we're seeing from my perspective and this is like my individual observations as a member of Gen Z.

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Speaker 2
Like, I think a lot of what we're seeing has to do with this super messed up dating landscape. Like I think everyone is so polarized, everyone is getting this, and everyone's just trying to make sense of a world that is like, crumbling. So, it make gender, it makes.

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Speaker 2
So I do think that, like, that's a people's decision to stay abstinent, that like, I can really wrap my head around because, like, I've been out there, I've been on the apps like it's the trend. It's really it's really not fun. There are things you want to focus on and like, maybe it is the social aspect of sex that you're like, I really don't want to do that right now.

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Speaker 2
I don't want to socialize with people who I would need to socialize with in order to have sex with them, like I'd rather just keep my head down, focus on whatever I need to focus on. Super understandable. So I think, yeah, there's like a long list of reasons that people might choose to abstain, that are really understandable.

00:11:59:11 - 00:12:22:03
Speaker 1
Again, I think it's always worth like really asking yourself where that's coming from. I also think that there's a, misconception that in order to be sex positive, you need to be sexually active. Yeah. And I do not think that at all. I think that informed, autonomous, empowered decisions about your body and your sensuality and your relationship to stuff.

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Speaker 1
You can be an incredibly sex positive, asexual person and, you know, slut it up in your own mind and your fantasy. It's up to you. Totally.

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Speaker 1
And I think often consider sex, their approaches to sex.

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Speaker 2
And I think within your own values exploration, like understanding what sex means to you, you might really come to the conclusion that, like, sex does mean commitment to you. Yeah. Like I want to abstain because to me, sex indicates commitment. I think it's worth further also investigating where that comes from. But if that's what you come to like, cool.

00:13:09:05 - 00:13:39:10
Speaker 1
Like that's that's you like that's awesome. That's great. But it's when I think we try to impose that on other people that it becomes really hard for me to wrap my head around. Well, and, you know, we can go into so many different conversations about this gender expectations and reclaiming abstinence as an intentional choice. But in our last question to wrap up this episode, how do we talk about abstinence without automatically assuming it is either oppressive or empowering?

00:13:39:10 - 00:13:51:04
Speaker 1
We've kind of touched on this, but, to to wrap it up in a nice bow for me. Yeah.

00:13:51:06 - 00:14:19:13
Speaker 2
And our thoughts and our choices from that culture and their history, that history. And then I would also say, you know, it's important to understand the reasons that you are making the decisions that you are making. And I don't think that that has to be said in a way that's like at all condescending, like, go back and think about it like, no, think about it.

00:14:19:13 - 00:14:43:16
Speaker 2
And if there are reasons that like, makes sense to you and you feel like this is, you know, how how you want to move forward, like, yeah, cool. Yeah. I think too, that sometimes when we talk about things like this or we're talking with our friends or family members, that there can be this pressure that is either external or internal, that we need to have it all figured out.

00:14:43:16 - 00:15:08:17
Speaker 2
But I am one of the biggest fans of curiosity is everything. And saying I don't know yet is a full answer. And you don't have to know. Yeah, yeah, you can just be on the journey and it can be a 30, 60, 90 day thing. It can be a ten year thing, but it's your journey. And as long as you are living in integrity and you go to sleep every night in peace, knowing that you're doing the best thing for you and your nervous system, do it.

00:15:08:18 - 00:15:39:07
Speaker 1
I love that because I think, yeah, what you're saying is so true. You can ultimately make decisions because they feel right, even if you don't have a full understanding. I think they're really decisions as you. Yeah. And that sounds so simple. But I'm like, I, I go online every day and it's like, you guys need to do x, y, z.

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Speaker 1
Like people spend a lot of time and energy worried about the decisions that other people make that will never affect them. Exactly. And it's beyond me. So yeah, no, I love I love what you're saying. Well, thank you again

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Speaker 1
for this. Everyone stick around for the next episode. Intentional abstinence, sexual detox and digital

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Thanks for watching.

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You can visit us online at please or visit us at the shop. 635 Fifth Avenue, Brooklyn. Follow us on all socials at please NYC.