Celibacy & Abstinence: Intimacy in a Digital World | Episode 3 Transcript

What does abstinence mean when intimacy can happen through a screen? In Episode 3, Shelby Terrell and Tara Jones explore intentional celibacy, dating fatigue, and the ways technology is reshaping connection. Read the conversation on digital sexuality, AI companionship, and defining personal boundaries in an increasingly online world.

Explore intentional abstinence and digital intimacy, from dating-app fatigue to AI companionship and the evolving meanings of sex, pleasure, and connection. For more episodes, watch here

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Welcome to please, an educated pleasure channel.

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My name is Vanessa and I own and operate. Please, a sexual wellness shop located in Brooklyn, New York City.

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A platform for having open and informed conversations about sexual health and sexual wellness.

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Each series will have one main topic. Each topic will be run and moderated by a different host.

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series three with Shelby Terrell and Tara Jones, is a conversation on celibacy and abstinence.

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Welcome to celibacy and Abstinence. My name is Shelby Terrell. I'm a licensed sex and relationship therapist and intimacy coordinator for TV and film. And tonight I am joined by Tara Jones, the founder of the Sex Youth program. And tonight we are here at Please and Educated Pleasure Shop, located in South Slope, Brooklyn. We are on to episode three intentional abstinence, sexual detox, and digital sexuality.

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So before I dive in and start asking you all the questions because I can't wait to hear what you have to say about this. I wanted to share a study. Justin Lee Miller published this article in Psychology Today back in 2024. He shared the results of a nationally representative US survey done by the Kinsey Institute. 1500 adults participated, and they found that 16.5% of women described themselves as single by choice and reported that they were not sexually active.

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Right now, the corresponding number for men was 9%. This works out to be 1 in 10 young men and 1 in 6 women have become voluntarily celibate. These figures suggest that voluntary celibacy is indeed fairly common. The findings suggest that women are more likely to choose celibacy than men, and that men are more likely to be involuntarily celibate than women.

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So the why was a huge part of this conversation as well. Some of the people saying that said that they wanted to spend more time on personal growth and development, avoiding toxic behavior and dating apps. You mentioned that in the last episode ghosting, catfishing, overall rejection that just sucks. Dating fatigue, self-protection and risk avoidance. Self-Empowerment or reasserting one's independence and autonomy.

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So these are some of the things. But as you mentioned, you know, your Gen Z I'm a we're coming at this from different generational perspectives. We spoke a little bit about religion earlier, but I'm curious not only based off of this study, but in your experience and in some of the recent research and articles that have been coming out.

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What is your take on this? Yeah, I think weirder, but I do think like we as a society in the United States has kind of done this like pendulum swing where like people get more sex positive and then people get less sex positive.

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And I don't think that this ad like the sort of generational divide that we do have, like, you can like, look back to, like the Industrial Revolution, people started dating sort of like run by women.

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It was more so like, we have to put ourselves out there and be sexy. And then things like swung back around and then eventually you had the sexual revolution where they swung back around even further. And then so, like, here we are. And like when folks started, you know, using terms like going steady, you had their parents looking back and being like, that just sounds like no fun at all.

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And I feel like that's very reminiscent of, like, kind of where we are now where like, a lot of younger folks are deciding to be celibate and everyone's sort of looking fun at all. Yeah. And so, like, looking at that history. So like that history is so interesting because I'm like, oh, we've literally been doing this for such a long time.

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But I think the motivations are entirely different, and I think everyone's sort of like trying to get to the bottom of what those motivations are. And it's probably a combination of all the things. Yeah, but I think a lot of the ones that you touched on in this list, really pertain to, like the digitalization of, of, like all of our, our human interaction.

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And not only does it make it difficult for us to build social skills as individuals, but it's difficult to, like, make any sort of real connection, like it's not conducive to to relationship building broadly. So I, I can really resonate here. And I think working with young people to like, we obviously don't talk about the specifics of their, you know, dating lives and their experiences.

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But, yeah, it's I think online conversations are a big part of what we talk about. And so I can see a lot of what's, what's on this list, reflected in the sort of online discourse about how to date, how to make sense of dating, how to understand women, how to understand men. And it makes it so that people, I think, are buying in large, easy year to manipulate.

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Yeah. Yeah. You said something that, generationally where I, I'm recognizing something very similar. It seems to be this kind of rubber band reaction that is one extreme to the other. To the other. Totally. Whether it's because we have more information. I know that, you know, when I was younger, whether it was how I grew up or what I was exposed to, but I didn't know that there was any other relationship style available to me outside of monogamy.

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And so then exploring something like openness, non-monogamy, or even just a more transparent approach to casual dating. The Gen Z and Gen Alpha, again, just that that's something that they have more exposure and awareness to even even going back to the sex ed conversation where they're exposed to so many more things online now, which is a blessing and a curse, I think, because, education is I even something like porn?

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I think it's entertainment. It's on education. But we're going to come back to that. So moving through this, speaking on technology, if technology can give us sexual and even relational gratification without another human being physically present, but exactly what exactly are we abstaining from? What does masturbation, porn, sexting, or rhotic content companionship? How does this impact abstinence and celibacy?

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Yeah, there's so much there. I can't wait to hear what you have to say. Yeah, I think you're so right. Because it all, And so it is a it's so easy, yet so AI and AI induced it also, like you have to imagine at some point might begin to feel like hollow or no longer be like psychologically beneficial.

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I think also AI is inclined to agree with you on everything. So, might sort of alter people's understandings of consent and sort of really just like cradle the sort of inability to cope with rejection that we already have exactly as a society. So there's there's so much more risk there. It does make all of what we're talking about easier than ever and, like, more accessible than ever.

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Yeah, I think especially in a post-Covid world where, you know, the memes these days are like, I hope they cancel the plans on Friday. So I'm, I'm seeing whether it's a decrease of sexual connection or emotional connection. I'm also seeing people come in who are having a really hard time making friends as adults, and they want to be out there, but they also don't want to leave their house, but they also have social anxiety.

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And socialization is something that we need connection as humans to survive. And yet we're getting this kind of simulated, sterile version of it that I know that for me, post-Covid, the increase of technology use in my life is significant. But for younger generations where that is so the norm and how they were taught how to navigate so many things.

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And so, Esther Pearl actually talked about this on one of her podcasts. She had the first couple come in where he brought in his AI girlfriend for a couple session, which was. And then so we have that happening, but then you have VR goggles now that you can use with a sex robot or a sex toy. So you can have this full sensorial experience, even go to couples therapy and again, not even engage with another human being with a heartbeat.

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Yeah. And and it's so complex too because there really cool benefits in terms of like accessibility with a lot of this new technology. And like this is kind of the one area, I think, especially when it comes to AI, where it's like AI isn't in this instance, causing the problem. Like the problem is that people were isolated, that people were lonely, that people weren't building social skills like.

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And then AI came in and sort of offered a solution that maybe is absolutely worsening the problem and absolutely making so that the problem doesn't have to be faced. But I think with like all of the other issues that people have with AI in terms of like job loss or like, you know, art history or terms of, you know, all of these things, water usage, like, those are problems that are inherently caused by AI.

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But I think in this case, it's like nobody was addressing the loneliness and the isolation that a lot of these individuals were already feeling before this technology arose. So it's like we care so much now that, you know, they're on TV and they're talking about their AI partner, but like, nobody cared back then. Yes. Yeah. Speaking more and diving deeper into the rabbit hole of technology, is there actually such a thing as being addicted to sex or sexual stimulation, or are we sometimes using that language to describe something more complicated.

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Yeah. So I love this question. I was beginning to like come into my career as a sexuality professional. I knew sexuality professionals majority do not believe in sex or porn addiction, and I also knew that there were like people in real life who were like using this label and I could see them all around. And I was, you know, in college at the time.

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So, yeah, it's something that people say colloquially all the time. And so I was like, where's this gap? And so I really wanted to look at all of the research. And it's so interesting because you can find research articles to support you either way. Yes. And that's what makes it. Yeah. That's what makes it so hard to like discuss with people in like any space because they will come with research.

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There's even research talking about like going in depth about the other people's research and like why wasn't correct. And then it's also like it's research on sexuality. It's already underfunded. Most of it's not going to be generalizable. Like small sample sizes. So it's so interesting. What we know is that like most professionals, the majority of professionals do not see sex addiction, sex within an addiction framework.

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They don't think that that's a thing. There's no, like, high frequency sexual behavior that exists in the DSM. And that was a deliberate choice. Like there's not enough demonstrative evidence to show that we can talk about sex with an addiction framework, and there's tons of evidence about it really being a disconnect between people's morals and their sexual activity that causes people to think that they are sex addicts.

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Right. An entire industry with like, you know, we're talking about like 40 plus years of financial investment, like, really since the Aids epidemic started, like, that has really arose to, like, convince people that they are addicted to sex and take their money. Kind of coined, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the person who coined it also had no background in human sexuality.

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Like not didn't know a thing. It's like the love languages conversation. Another series. Totally. Yes. No. Yes. And that that happens so often I think with with things around sexuality too. It's like because maybe it's harder to understand like who is actually qualified to be talking about these things. We just take them at like, you know, face value.

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Yeah. But that's one of those ones. And you believe them. Exactly. And that's one of those worm.

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Yeah. No, it's it's, I think that there's like, a reality where people, you know, is like it interferes with their day to day life. It interferes with maybe their finances. And like, nobody's saying that that reality isn't a isn't a thing. Right? Like, nobody's saying that if you're seeing, like, sexual behaviors that are upsetting to you, like, obviously that's worth unpacking with a mental health professional, a sex therapist, namely, well, that's a we kind of spoke about that earlier, right?

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Any behavior can be adaptive or maladaptive. And if you find that it is impacting your daily functioning, your relationships, your ability to work, that is something to explore and evaluate. It's not necessarily the behavior itself, but your motivation for it, your why you're so I, I, I completely agree with you on that. I so many here, I want to dig into all of them, but I really need to make sure I keep us on track.

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So speaking further, even going down, down further into the rabbit hole of porn sex addiction or not, however you view it, this more recent trend and conversation around. So how do practices like goofing poor and sexting all of that impact and come into this conversation? I've heard people tried to talk about as a form of this, what is your on and for for the folks at home?

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Do you want to define it? Yeah. So Gooding is

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Well, and in extreme cases, some people are, are going and taking this practice on for hours or days, days at a

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Unknown
And so there are really communities edging.

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Yeah. So how much of that do you think is the incel community? Do you think that there is a heavy overlap there?

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There's an overlap there for sure, but I think that there's like Serge, that even me who spends hours looking into these things, it's like I will never understand it the way that somebody will understand it. Yeah.

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It is, it really is, like having been in it. But I definitely think that there's like an overlap. I definitely think, like, even if it's not, I think people use like incel as like a catch all term because I think, you know, there's like a legacy there. And they were kind of some of the first to become like a mainstream, like household name.

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I think that even just people who wouldn't identify as incels, who wouldn't even identify necessarily with the manosphere, but might be predominantly men who are just like meme lords, who are just like spending a ton of time on fortune. Like those people might find themselves in spaces to. So it's interesting that I think really like the source of my interest in a lot of these spaces has been that the entry point is so it can be anything.

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Unknown
The entry point could be anything in this world. And you can, like, really fall down a rabbit hole. And a lot of the time the entry point is like something so understandable, like, so, so yeah, I think there's a lot of ways to find yourself in a community that's talking about gunning. Yes. So if someone is not having partnered sex, but is spending hours engaging with pornography or AI generated erotic experiences, are they abstinent?

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It it. And I think that solo sex is, you know, coming to terms and understanding especially.

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Yeah. As somebody like who works with young people, like sometimes that can be hard because when I tell adults that I teach sex ed to young people, the assumption is that we're talking exclusively about partnered sex or penis and vagina sex. Like, that's what sex ed is. But I'm like, no, like human beings start self stimulating at like, we're talking like infant type years.

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Like we're talking like two, you know, peaks at age five or whatever it is. So it's like human beings are, yeah, like engaging with our sexuality throughout our lifespan, as uncomfortable as that is for, like, a lot of people to swallow. But yeah, so I think, I think personally what I call you abstinent, maybe not. But I think that your personal definitions might differ in like, that's okay, because we've already established there's no one.

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Exactly. What do you think happens to our relationship with our bodies when sexual experiences become increasingly mediated through screens? My gosh, that's a really hard question to answer. I think, like a lot of sexuality, professionals would probably have different answers because something that I've really loved about being a sexuality professional is like, we're talking about the psychological. We're talking about, anatomy, we're talking about biology, we're talking about, sociology, we're talking about all of these different areas.

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And so I think if you took a sexuality professional in all of those different areas and you ask them how the internet impacts like the work that they do, like they would all probably have a really different answer. And like probably most of them, like, wouldn't be good.

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Yeah, too, I do. I think that variety is really important with our bodies, and if we become so attached to one form of stimulation or one form of fantasy, or one form of reaching climax or orgasm or experiencing pleasure, then when you start to have partnered sex partner partners, whatever that looks like for you, then it can become challenging to meet your partner where you're at in this real life.

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Vulnerable, messy, sometimes funny, sometimes sexy scenario. If you're so used to this one thing, if you only use a vibrator to orgasm every time, then when you're having partnered sex, the vibrator will likely need to be present with you. Yeah. So I think it's just having that understanding, because then we become reliant and it becomes difficult to become aroused in real life situations.

00:21:15:04 - 00:21:53:21
So yeah, I think the the concept and the understanding of some desensitization, whether it's from arousal, or desire arousal being the physiological experience, desire being the mental component of it. So that's my understanding and my, my take on that. But, to wrap us up on this episode, do you think that people then are moving away from partnered sex or just simply finding new ways to experience sexuality away from sex?

00:21:53:23 - 00:22:28:22
I do think, like thing, but I have no idea, like how we were just one of those things where, like, we were supposed to be the generation that, like, stopped smoking and then vapes came out or like, you know, all like the generation that stopped cyberbullying and then TikTok was invented, you know, and so it's like, I don't know.

00:22:29:00 - 00:22:56:18
Yeah. Like how we get to a place where people are more accepting of their own sexuality. And I don't even know if that would necessarily result in more people choosing to be sexually active. I think that there's a lot of complexity around, like, hookup culture to, like, even if, sex, you are a person for whom casual sex can be a beneficial, like or be, you know, fulfilling.

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It's like the culture of it all is really, it's difficult to navigate, I think, for virtually everybody involved and sort of the expectations around like engaging and pulling back and like, you know, removing your humanity or your emotions, it can be, you know, it can begin. So I don't know where we where find it in ourselves to, like, have more open money.

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But I do like finger swing back. Well, I'm glad that you and I are having this conversation. I hope that we're a part of that movement and getting people to talk about it or think about it differently because, you know, we we saw what happened with gay marriage two steps forward, one step back, abortion, all of that.

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So when we're talking about sex education, creating more pathways for comprehensive inclusive sex ed, age appropriate, all of the things that we want it to be, I'm hoping that, you know, we'll work together. We'll work with. Please. We'll do we'll do it all to make it happen. Well, thank you so much for this one. Stick around for the next episode, which is when celibacy is not a choice.

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Thanks for watching.

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You can visit us online at please or visit us at the shop. 635 Fifth Avenue, Brooklyn. Follow us on all socials at please NYC.