Psychology of Kink: Episode 3 Transcript

00:00:36:05 - 00:01:01:06
Speaker 1
Welcome back to the Psychology of King. My name is Aubrey and I am joined by Goddess Victoria, sway and Mistress Madeline Prior. And tonight we are at please, an educated shop pleasure shop in New York City, located at 635 Fifth Avenue, Brooklyn. In this episode, we are going to be discussing King as a laboratory, diving into negotiation, consent and ethics.

00:01:01:08 - 00:01:38:11
Speaker 1
Kink, at its best, functions as a laboratory of desire, some might say, and the most sophisticated technology in that laboratory is not necessarily impact or restraint. It's negotiation. As Tina Horn writes, King culture has developed a sexual ethic grounded in imagination, curiosity, and communication. Tonight we are unpacking what that actually means in practice. So first, I want to get into the core psychological functions of negotiation, because it is a very important process there for a reason.

00:01:38:13 - 00:02:04:15
Speaker 1
First, it externalize desire. It moves our ones from fantasy into language. It creates a mutual reality of this is what we're doing together. And it also builds nervous system safety. We are going to dive into containment, the principle of containment and why that's so important. Containment before intensity. Always. So let's start there because I feel like that is the foundation goddess.

00:02:04:15 - 00:02:09:17
Speaker 1
Victoria, what is containment and why is it so important in creating a scene?

00:02:09:19 - 00:02:35:15
Speaker 2
So if you are working with somebody, a submissive, that your goal is to kind of crack them open a little bit, they have to know that you're going to be able to hold them when their emotions or experience might get too big, so that they have to be able to trust you to stay with them, you know, no matter what they experience.

00:02:35:15 - 00:03:07:09
Speaker 2
And so when you start a scene and you start negotiating that scene, establishing that trust and establishing those boundaries and and establishing that is okay for them to, you know, go through the the journey, helps them know that you're going to hold them in their space and be present with them with whatever they experience. One aspect of containment.

00:03:07:10 - 00:03:16:10
Speaker 1
One of many. And you put it so well, it is the foundation. Yeah. How am I going to be held?

00:03:16:11 - 00:03:17:04
Speaker 2
Right?

00:03:17:04 - 00:03:31:11
Speaker 1
How is that trust created? Madeline, I know you do so much in in reading people and energetics work, and I know containment is huge and central to your practice. Tell me a little bit about how it shows up for you.

00:03:31:14 - 00:03:59:12
Speaker 3
Yeah. It is. When I was training as a Dom, we worked on containment for six straight weeks before we started anything else. And it was infuriating at the time because we were so ready to pick up and implement or to try something. Someone. And I really have a lot of respect for Om Rupani, who trained me and the time we spent learning containment.

00:03:59:12 - 00:04:34:14
Speaker 3
Containment is not only a physical practice, but it's also energetic. It can come in many forms. And so we learned how to contain someone with our bodies by holding them, by actually wrapping them up, grounding them with firm touch and letting them relax in our arms. But we also learned how to contain with our voices. So dropping your voice down, talking slowly, inviting someone into that hypnotic, restful place.

00:04:34:16 - 00:05:05:06
Speaker 3
We learned how to contain someone energetically, simply by grounding our own energies. And that practice has followed me. You know, when I am in a scene, it's a containment sandwich. So I am containing and then activating and then containing and then activating. You always start with containment, you always in with containment. And that takes someone from coming from wherever they've come in New York City.

00:05:05:07 - 00:05:30:22
Speaker 3
Frenetic energy. I just came out of my workday and brings their body and their nervous system in particular, into a place where they can actually be present to stimuli in a thoughtful, conscious and consensual way. And so that's what creates the safety that makes way for the liberation of a wild scene. If you don't have the containment, it actually just feels bad, right?

00:05:30:23 - 00:05:31:12
Speaker 1
Wow.

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Speaker 2
Feels unsafe.

00:05:32:15 - 00:05:57:22
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. Thank you both for explaining the importance of containment, how that's so central to a scene. Let's get into specifically talking about what are we co-creating here in terms of negotiation. I know the negotiation process can be so specific to the dominant and submissive. I'm so very curious to hear about what negotiation looks like for you both.

00:05:57:23 - 00:06:00:15
Speaker 1
Goddess Victoria, tell me a little bit about your process.

00:06:00:16 - 00:06:01:10
Speaker 2
So first.

00:06:01:11 - 00:06:02:03
Speaker 1
It's.

00:06:02:05 - 00:06:33:21
Speaker 2
It's what, you know, feeling what tone. What are you looking to explore? And I ask people this question and you get the blank stare back because they don't know. So helping somebody dig in a little bit to what their shadow is and what they want to explore and where they want to lean. That's the first step. And then what activities do you like?

00:06:34:00 - 00:06:54:19
Speaker 2
So sometimes when someone starts talking about the activities that they like, you start to get an idea of, well, I like bondage. And what is it that you like about bondage? How do you feel when you do bondage? That's where. Well, I feel like I don't have any control or I feel held or I just like the compression of it.

00:06:54:20 - 00:07:06:10
Speaker 2
And you keep digging there so that you get an idea of what tone you're going to bring to the scene.

00:07:06:12 - 00:07:43:19
Speaker 2
And then you, of course, dig into what? Pain? No pain. Humiliation. No humiliation. All of these other small aspects. One of the important concepts that I like to tell people during negotiation is, you know, what we talk about here, this is we're staying within this. This is the container. This is what's happening. I'm not going to spring something on you that we haven't agreed to here.

00:07:43:21 - 00:07:47:02
Speaker 2
That helps them relax.

00:07:47:04 - 00:07:51:07
Speaker 1
Mistress Madeline, what does negotiation look like for you?

00:07:51:08 - 00:08:20:03
Speaker 3
Once again, it looks to totally different ways. Whether I'm playing professionally or personally. Personal negotiation is usually with my partner, sometimes with other lovers, and it's a little bit more organic based on the moment. It's like, okay, well, what are we feeling? We're at a play party. I want to do a flogging scene. I want to be logged in just like it's a little more kind of desire tracking, and it feels like a treasure hunt.

00:08:20:04 - 00:08:25:11
Speaker 3
Like a little of this and a little of that. And you're bringing this, and he's bringing that. I'm not into that. So it's.

00:08:25:12 - 00:08:26:11
Speaker 2
In your language.

00:08:26:12 - 00:08:54:13
Speaker 3
Exactly. And professionally, you are meeting someone for the purpose of having a kinky experience with that person. And as the professional, as Goddess Victoria said, we are holding an immense amount of responsibility. And so I have a psychotic form that I make everyone fill out that is exhaustive around everything that I would be interested in doing in a scene.

00:08:54:14 - 00:09:19:04
Speaker 3
And so it's everything that I'm trained in, everything that I like to do, and it's just a full laundry list. And from that list, people will tell me what they're interested in. And what I tell my clients is, when you fill this out, you are creating a menu. This is not a menu. You're not ordering these 28 things that you've listed.

00:09:19:05 - 00:09:45:11
Speaker 3
I gave you a laundry list of possibility and you gave me back a menu. And now I take the menu and we might do five things on this list. We might do ten, we might do one. And you will have no idea. And that's part of how I work as an erotic artist, is I take the ingredients or the paints that are provided to me, and then we co-create the piece of art.

00:09:45:11 - 00:10:13:16
Speaker 3
And so that's in my mind. Negotiation is really an art form. There is this dance to it, and I'm often challenging myself to make the negotiation part of the experience. It's not a barrier to the experience, and I like to remind, especially my coaching clients, that especially the men who I'm coaching to be Doms, I'm like, this is not the box you check in order to have the fun you want.

00:10:13:18 - 00:10:34:20
Speaker 3
This is part of the experience and as the Dom, it's your job to make the negotiation thorough, to make it thoughtful, to make it connective, and to make it feel really safe and in its best moments, to make it sexy. Yes, you can make negotiation sexy. Everybody, right? No. Just disclaimer.

00:10:34:21 - 00:10:35:06
Speaker 2
Right?

00:10:35:07 - 00:10:39:04
Speaker 3
No, it does not have to be dry and sterile in, in a, you know, this.

00:10:39:04 - 00:10:41:09
Speaker 2
And that, not this exactly.

00:10:41:14 - 00:10:46:23
Speaker 3
In a fluorescent lit room. Really. We can it can be part of the.

00:10:47:01 - 00:10:47:23
Speaker 4
Above it all.

00:10:48:01 - 00:10:51:20
Speaker 1
I love it. Take out the fluorescence, please, please, please, none.

00:10:51:20 - 00:10:52:04
Speaker 3
Of those.

00:10:52:04 - 00:10:53:12
Speaker 1
Unless you're into that.

00:10:53:13 - 00:10:56:15
Speaker 3
Unless it's an interrogation scene. And then by all means.

00:10:56:16 - 00:11:15:20
Speaker 1
In which case, bring it on. Mr. Allen, you touched on something so important about the ethics of this, and I think that ethics in kink are so important to talk about, because some of these acts inherently can be dangerous.

00:11:16:00 - 00:11:16:06
Speaker 2
Right?

00:11:16:07 - 00:11:47:14
Speaker 1
We're not trying to skirt around that. You're both trained professionals. You know how to do a lot of this. But there is an ethical responsibility when engaging with some of these. And there are different frameworks within kink sec rack. We can get into everything. But what is the line between symbolic exploration and going to far? That is a super nuanced question, and I love to know how you both determine that in your own personal practices.

00:11:47:16 - 00:12:20:07
Speaker 2
This is a very different thing between professional and personal. Also, you know, edge play with somebody you don't know and edge play with somebody that you know and have a relationship with. So for me, with somebody that is coming to me as a client, what what we plan out in our negotiation is what we stick to. I'm not going to push you past the things that we agreed to, ever.

00:12:20:09 - 00:12:44:15
Speaker 2
However, you know, sometimes somebody agrees to something and and then when it's happening, they realize it, it is too far. And then they use their safeword. And then you have to have that containment where you can come back and talk about it and, and work through it. I don't know.

00:12:44:17 - 00:13:22:20
Speaker 2
That I'm part of edge play, and part of pushing is that you're walking, that you know, you're walking that line. And I think the important thing is that you haven't crossed over into what the other person didn't agree to. And so you can talk about and agree to some pretty extreme activities. But as soon as you do something that that somebody didn't consent to or agree to or want to explore, then you've crossed the line.

00:13:22:22 - 00:13:25:18
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's just Madeline. How does it show up for you?

00:13:25:20 - 00:14:09:20
Speaker 3
Safe where? It's safe words. Safe words. It is the trust that we put in our subs. It is something that I talk about a lot in negotiation and throughout, because at the end of the day, we are going into risky places. You brought up rock, right? Risk aware, conscious kink. That is the nomenclature that we agree to because it is risky play when you are bringing pain in, when you are bringing psychologically edgy topics in, when you are working with someone's psyche and their ego and perhaps even touching their trauma, there is risk involved.

00:14:09:22 - 00:14:33:15
Speaker 3
And as a submissive, I often have to remind myself to use my safe words and to use them liberally. And I have an email that goes out to every client before every scene, and there is a paragraph I copy and paste every single time which says use your safe words liberally. Yes, I want to hear yellow from you.

00:14:33:16 - 00:14:37:00
Speaker 2
I'm relying on you using your safe word.

00:14:37:01 - 00:15:01:05
Speaker 3
Exactly right. I want to hear yellow when the rope is pinching you in a way that you don't like. I want you to feel really comfortable using yellow, so that I know that if we start to veer into territory that is becoming unsafe or dangerous for you in any way that you're clocking it, and that you have the courage to speak up, and that is what we rely on.

00:15:01:05 - 00:15:34:13
Speaker 3
And mistakes still happen. Whoopsie. Still happen. And so it's also about being trained and recovering from and handling moments where there is a rupture. And if you are going to be in a kink space as a pro or as a lifestyle dom, you have to be ready to hold someone in rupture. That's part of the game. Absolutely. And I think that's especially important for the lifestyle Doms, because it can feel like fun and games and like, I love I love choking and slapping people around.

00:15:34:13 - 00:15:50:03
Speaker 3
And it's like, you got to be ready when something goes awry to click into daddy mode, mommy mode, like caretaker energy and hold someone until they're fully back on their feet, whatever that means.

00:15:50:04 - 00:16:14:13
Speaker 1
Yes, beautiful. And since we're here when something does go wrong, you just named it beautifully repair right. Turning towards repair. And you just gave so many gorgeous examples of what that can look like. But it is coming back to that container. What does that containment look like? How? And it can take 20 minutes to someone's nervous system depending on what happened.

00:16:14:14 - 00:16:32:01
Speaker 1
Right. But knowing that there is that language and also trusting the submissive eye, saying, I need your trust and I need you to be utterly honest with me. That is your job. Your one job is to be truthful with me here and use those safe words when you need.

00:16:32:04 - 00:16:51:12
Speaker 2
But somebody is new to being submissive, they will always say, oh, but I don't want to let you down. I don't want this. And just really instilling. I can't go all out if I don't trust that you're going to use these words.

00:16:51:13 - 00:16:54:11
Speaker 3
Yep. You move at the speed of trust, right?

00:16:54:13 - 00:16:59:14
Speaker 1
If I hear I don't have limits one more time, my.

00:16:59:16 - 00:17:02:19
Speaker 3
Red flag. Red flag.

00:17:02:21 - 00:17:12:09
Speaker 1
So negotiation builds the container. Now let's talk about what that container allows in the body, the brain and the nervous system. We'll catch you in the next episode.